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Longhunter

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Registered: 27/02/06
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Reply with quote  #31 
Didn't do it again 'tho...
Steve

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JamesHunt

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Reply with quote  #32 
Interesting discussion. In my readings of the colonial frontier versus the plains Indians some 50 years or so later, I am thinking I'd rather be captured by the latter if my gun misfired on the "last round". The horrors of torture of the Eastern Indians were well known as many a French priest, probably helplessly, observed a Britisher tortured, a few years later more than a few British officers watched, also probably helplessly, as an American was tortured. Then there were times when a group of hunters might be captured, some would be tortured while others were adopted into the tribe. There are records of all of the above writing what they saw. Eastern Indians were not above canabilism, not as a food source but as ritual. None of these things were reserved for the white guy, they practiced them on their Indian enemies also, and reportedly did so long before the white guy moved in.

Their are many a horror story that is associated with white activities, but none as impressive as Indian torture. I really think that even among the worst whites, a sense of JudeoChristian standards had an influence. Probably why we don't go around butchering folks today as they do in some African states. Let us say our killing has more rules and humanity? associated with it.

I can't walk away with quite the sense of white guilt others do with regard to European treachery on this continent. Who apologizes to me for the Vikings who came across that stretch of water and butchered my ancestors, took the land and then became Normons of which some were then my ancestors who then crossed the channel and butchered some of my ancestors there. Who apologizes to me for those Scottish heathens who came down from the north and butchered some of my fine English ancestors. Who apologizes to me for those English Imperialists who went north and butchered some of my Scottish ancestors. Who apologizes to me for what the British did to my Irish ancestors, or what is said about those Irish rogues who murdered my English ancestors. And what about those Romans who invaded my country, took my land and destroyed my pagan culture (you know the one where my ancestors would offer human sacrifices)? And most of all who apologizes to me for Oliver Cromwell who took my ancestors property and forced him to move to the God forsaken wilderness now known as America.

Sorry about my ancestors plight, but it has all worked out pretty good for me. The Greco-Roman standards of a republic and representative government with JudeoChristian ethics embedded in our law.

Point Being: The Indians ain't unique. This is the story of mankind and the world. And they were not a bunch of mother earth types when we arrived. Sorry about their ancestors loss, how many would want to go back to that lifestyle, not what is perceived, but the brutality of their reality of the time. I suspect none.

Have I been on the soap box long enough? I will not bother asking for an apology, and I will not bother giving one that had nothing to do with my actions.


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horseapples

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Reply with quote  #33 
Yeah James,

sorry about all that, I had ancestors in roughly the same parts of the same continent. It was probably their fault, maybe, if they weren't also victims. Would you like some compo?
danceswithwolves49

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Reply with quote  #34 

When I was a lad in school our history book stated that the French introduced the Indians to scalping. Prior to that it was perhaps simply filling an enemy full of arrows to see how many it took for him to die....the more arrows the braver the enemy. Then there was the typical burning at the stake....and other atrocities that have only been suggested on TV and in movies. As for Custer being tortured at Little Big Horn where sources say he was not.....this was to prevent Libby Custer any further anguish from the fact that he had been killed. Custer most likely WAS NOT tortured but his body WAS mutilated which some sources say he was not. This statement was made, as I stated, to prevent any further anguish to Libby. Custer's thighs were both slit lengthwise, from hip to knee, to the bone. He also had an arrow in a certain part of the male anatomy...let us hope he were already dead when this happened.


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horseapples

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Reply with quote  #35 

That's interesting, where'd you dig that up from? I've always been lead to believe that Custer's body was left un-mutilated following the battle rather in the same way as the bugler and one other soldier at the Fetterman fight. It'd be nice to read the Custer demise from a different perspective and weigh the two stories against eachother.

charlieWaite

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Registered: 03/04/08
Posts: 2,587
Reply with quote  #36 
i have read dozens of books on the battle of greasy grass (little big horn)and watched several documentaries and the only mention of wounds on Custer's body was a bullet wound to the breast and temple ,punctured ears and a little finger removed.
If your source was correct then to spare people bad news would not it be put about that none of the victims were mutilated
possibly yours is the same source that came up with the theory that certain western outlaws did not meet their end the way history records it but rather romantically went on to live happily ever after.
a nice story to believe but i would like to know your source
Personally if i were an Indian i would have mutilated anyone who would be responsible for washita and the atrocities there after
This thread is entitled Indian ways to torture maybe there should be one entitled white ways to torture or what chivingtons men did after sand creak or broken promises of the whites that still go on to this day
   charlie waite



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bigwyatt

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 12,064
Reply with quote  #37 
iam inclined to agree with James hunt on this one ,i don't think modern white American should be made to feel guilty for past wrongs as  Americans have embraced native American culture and history .
Celts were here in England before the English Saxons came over and the pagan's before the Celts .
The Irish are forever condemning the British for our policy's and wars with Ireland more than 500 years ago ,so why do some of the British celebrate st Patrick's day is beyond me when ST Georges day Hardley gets the recognition it deserves .
no i don't see why Anglo Americans of today should take the blame and be held responsible in any way for what happened hundreds of years ago .

cheers Wyatt

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danceswithwolves49

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Registered: 23/12/05
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Reply with quote  #38 

Back in the Victorian era it was thought to be inconsiderate to describe the wounds suffered by a soldier or even a civilian who was killed by almost any means. This was done to prevent further anguish to the wives of those killed especially someone of Custer's fame. However I believe we have all seen the photos of the soldier killed and mutilated by the Indians...unfortunately this was a little known soldier and as such this photo was made. Custer WAS mutilated. This was told me by a Colonel in the US Army who had access to certain documents pertaining to the investigation into the battle. This Colonel, who worked as an Army historian and also was connected to graves registration in the Army, and whose identity I am not at liberty to reveal stated this and also stated that Tom Custer was so mutilated that the only means of positively identifying him was a tattoo on his arm which were the initials TWC which stood for Thomas Ward Custer. Several of the surviving officers positovely identified the body of Tom Custer. Some believed that Tom were still alive when some of the mutilation was done. The General was lying across the bodies of several of his men..one possibly being 1st Sgt Kenney...and had both thighs slashed to the bone from hip to knee. A bullet wound in the left breast and one in the left temple and the TIP of one little finger removed. Also were the 3 arrows shot into his "manhood". He was not scalped for 2 main reasons....he had cut his hair short prior to the campaign at Libby's insistence and 2...he was going bald and as such his scalp was not worth anything. The Indians did not know it was Custer until after the battle. Also....concerning the 2 bullet wounds.......there was quite a lot of blood around the breast wound....no blood around that wound in his left temple. To the Colonel this suggested a shot to the head AFTER he was dead but a sort of "make sure" bullet. Many soldiers tried to fake being dead but were found out.


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charlieWaite

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Reply with quote  #39 
dww
i have read your statement and on the word of one unmentionable american officer we are to discredit history books and statements from indians...who were the only survivors of custer hill?
i refuse to believe that history can be changed because one man says he had access to classified documents...why should i
however if it is in your own opinion that 132 years of american history is wrong i will respect that
But to convince me of this is like stating the south actually won the civil war
sorry dww but more evidence other than hear say is needed for me

  charlie waite

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Charlie Waite
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danceswithwolves49

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Registered: 23/12/05
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Reply with quote  #40 

Of course hiustory books are wrong......for instance we have all heard of the Battle of Bunker Hill.........it was not fought on Bunker Hill at all it was on Breed's Hill adjacent to Bunker Hill. And as far as the American Civil War is concerned I always thought it was the one who lost the most men that lost the war........check it out....the North lost far more men than the South. But as far as Little Big Horn....the report read by the Colonel was written by none other than Alfred Terry himself.....as I stated the officers and men told Libby Custer that the General was not mutilated to save her further agony of his being killed. Ask anyone who reenacts the battle....they will tell you the same thing.


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danceswithwolves49

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Reply with quote  #41 
I have just found this forum on Little Big Horn....of note are the 2nd and 3rd postings.


http://lbha.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=research&action=display&thread=2333

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charlieWaite

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Reply with quote  #42 
thanks for straitening that out for me i shall now throw all my university of oklahoma press  books away especially the ones on the greasy grass and the indians point of view..you can,t trust these indians ..allways telling lies that they wont break treaty,s and false statements ....in future i shall go and listen to the bloke in the pub he is allways right or some joe bloggs speculation from a chat room
as you can see we have a difference of opinion on this and will have to agree not to agree
 charlie waite
ps the gunfight at the o.k coral was not in the coral but in a vacant lot outside it but the gunfight did happen.

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Charlie Waite
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Linkstrap

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Reply with quote  #43 

Ah.., the internet!  Don't ya just love it? 

All those dusty old books are outdated. Internet forums are where you'll find all you need for answers these days. Why should we bother to do our own research when so many are so desperately keen to impart their accrued wisdom to us instantly and without cost? Forget what all those dull intellectuals and crusty old academics would have us believe, what do they know? 


P.S. It's my belief that G.A. Custer was killed by a second sniper from the grassy knoll in Dallas.., one heck of an impressive shot I think you'll agree. (Must have been one of them 'magic bullets' they make such a fuss about!)

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horseapples

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Reply with quote  #44 

Can anybody smell fish? I swear there's something fishy here.

TsalagiDave

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance

I wonder who the "credible witnesses" were to these events?

The answer to the question is Dr. John Knight. He was captured along with Col. William Crawford and forced to watch the gruesome spectacle committed by Delaware and Shawnee indians. The good doctor escaped an appointment with the stake and lived to tell the tale.  This occurred in the Ohio frontier on Tuesday, June 11, 1782 and was the doctor's actual account  presented to Pittspurgh Lawyer, Hugh H. Brackenridge and published in 1783.

As a mixed-breed native American, I have always found this to be a fascinating topic but unfortunately, political correctness has clouded it into a silly one-sided goodguy vs badguy comic opera. We all need to remember that:

  • American Indians were not always good guys.
  • White people were not always bad guys.
  • American Indians were a lot more educated, savy and integrated with the European cultures than they normally get credit for.
  • Members of virtually EVERY mainstream ethnic group in America's frontier history have committed acts of heinous violence on one another for numerous reasons. (...okay, well maybe not the Amish)
  • There was a lot of intermarriage between the new white immigrants and the native people creating a diverse and well established mainstream in society dating back to the earliest settlements
This alone is a topic that can fill volumes.

If you want to read more on a lot of actual accounts like this, I recommend the following book:

Captured by Indians 15 First Hand Accounts, 1750-1870. Dover Publications US (ISBN 0-486-24901-8

Take care.

-Dave


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