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DixiePiobaire

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Reply with quote  #16 
Not sure what your point was Dave .. I have no political affiliation when it comes to the politics of the USA .. indeed, as I was trying to say, I think its dangerous for any UK or US person to try to draw any direct correlation between UK and US politics. I like facts .. if I get a fact wrong, then I hope and expect that those with greater knowledge and/or experience will bring it to my attention so that I may amend my knowledge base .. to my mind one of the great values of 'The Shootists Forum'. I merely stated a fact. The problem with cross-Pond political discussion is that though there are common terms involved, they mean entirely different things in the two places. You talk of what to you is 'socialism' .. but as a Business and Politics Graduate, I can see no evidence of 'socialism', as it is understood in Europe, in either of the main US Political Parties. Bernie Sanders uses the word, but even he isn't proposing anything much that would be seen as 'Socialism' over here .. 'Liberalism' possibly, but not 'Socialism' .. indeed, the most ultra-Democrat people that I've known have never come close to espousing 'Socialism' as we have seen, and experienced it, in Europe.

So we'll agree to differ I hope .. bonded by a shared view that the voice of the mass of the people, whatever it may be, must be reflected in their Government .. and that a Nation that loses sight of its history and its roots renders its self the poorer.

DP

      

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horseapples

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Reply with quote  #17 
So, we here live in a "democracy" where one man's vote is not equal to another, where we have a bill of rights that is largely denied or ignored officially and we face one ban or restriction after another while America conciders dipping a toe in the water by getting rid of part of their constitution. It's not the thin end of the wedge, there'll be no more erosion once they open the flood gate, they can be trusted to only part rape you. Interesting times indeed.

Dixie, the 1689 bill of rights available from Hansard under constitutional law:statutes in force. Democracy, to my simple mind is one adult, one vote, most votes wins. Our last general election a conservative Member of Parliament averaged something like 35,000 votes, a labour MP 42,000 and a UKIP MP 4,000,000 votes. I see no democracy there.

Our people are now being asked to vote in a referendum that none of them understand in a proportional representation vote that we can't have in any other situation.
DixiePiobaire

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Reply with quote  #18 
I'm bailing out of this one HA .. its going in a strange direction. I have said nothing that implies, or states, that our system over here is necessarily superior (or inferior) to that in the USA .... just different. I have said that there is no direct political correlation between the two main parties in the USA, and the two main parties here .. and that is a fact. I have made no mention of Democracy .. since that was a fairly brutal system practiced in Athens by which a very very small section of the population was allowed to vote at all (not unlike the current system in Russia, Egypt, or Syria) .. nor have I implied that we have one and the USA doesn't. In my view, as it happens, neither do .. its as impossible in practice as theoretical Communism has proved to be. 

Part of the problem with regard to different levels of votes required in any given Constituency will be cured by the re-drawing of Constituency Boundaries now in hand. However, to see the election of more minority party MPs (such as Greens, Independents, and UKIP) we would have to adopt Proportional Representation .. to which you say you are opposed .. as they cannot secure enough votes in individual Constituencies to achieve greater representation. The figures you quote are the total votes cast divided by the number of seats, but as the Constituencies are not of equal size, the figures are not statistically valid.

The EU Referendum is NOT a proportional representational vote .. its majority wins, just like the last 11 Referenda.

DP


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TsalagiDave

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DixiePiobaire
Just returning to where this thread started, the root development of Government 'Schools' for Native Americans, with all that goes with it (already commented upon), was carried out entirely under Republican Presidents.



DP, I think that if we lived near one another we'd spend a lot of time buying one another drinks, while engaging in hours of friendly debate as well as discussions of mutual agreement. This goes double since we share University Business majors (mine was business and marketing). My previous reply was made late in the evening last night and it did ramble so hopefully I am writing with more clarity now.

I copied the (above) statement I originally was referring to. I took exception with it because it's incorrect.  Although Republican presidents did dominate the remainder of the 19th c until 1920 (presumably since this is roughly the "heyday" period of American Indian Schools) there were still 5-presidential terms under Democrat party administrations equaling 20-years  out of the 55 from Lincoln's death till 1920. (...or 12 of the 35 years from 1865-1900 if you  prefer). Even if you are implying that Republicans "stated it", if the Democrats opposed, they had more than a few opportunities to change it which they did not.

Your statement seemed to imply that mistreatment of American Indians was exclusively a trait of the Republican party when you stated it "...was carried out entirely under Republican Presidents".  The truth is American Indian tribes suffered injustice at times under both Republican and Democrat administrations so I originally interpreted your statement to be an unnecessary partisan jab at the political party with which I affiliate. It is also the party of Susan B Anthony and Martin Luther King.  I am proud to be a member of the Republican party and I am very protective against misleading statements against it.  Likewise, when critique is due (as it often has been in recent years) I am open minded enough to criticize this party without any sense of blind party loyalty. (...and no, I don't like Trump, nor is he a real conservative.)

In American Universities, there is a strong leftist presence that constantly attempts to discredit conservatives and Republicans alike. Perhaps I have developed too swift of a knee-jerk reply to any challenge real or imagined.  Although I can accept either your agreement or disagreement with my political views, I had interpreted your statement as a political jab and felt a retort from the proverbial "other side of the coin" was in order.

Either way, please do not take this as a form of contention on my end. It is merely a different point of view for the benefit of the discussion.  I've always enjoyed our exchanges and agreements.  Hopefully, I can look forward to the prospect of many more in the years to come.


-Dave



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horseapples

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Reply with quote  #20 
Dixie, I am digressing and apologise whole heartedly for doing so but I would like to clarify my ramblings. I view the referendum as proporioinal representation because there are only 2 choices, in or out and the most votes win. Greater proportion of votes equals winner.

Secondly, it is not the drawing of electoral boundaries that is my bug bear it's the first past the post system in a multi party field. If I may illustrate.

Imagine we had 11 constituencies, each containing 100 people and 3 parties contesting a vote. Party A beats party C in 5 constituencies 51/49 and party B beats party C in 6 constituencies 51/49. Party B wins the election with 6 M.P.'s, party A is second with 5 and poor old party C has no say, no representation and no M.P.'s So party A wins with 306 votes, party B exerts massive influence with 255 votes and party C can only watch from the sidelines with 539 votes.

An exaggerated example for illustration purposes yes but that is our system. As I have said before, I am politically confused party wise but on this I am clear, it's an unfair system and the government even acknowledged it following the last election but refused to attempt to improve it. So the next time you hear a politition say that if you don't like something you can go to the ballot box, he's actually calling you a **** and laughing in your face. That's what gets my dander up.

If the government represents the country I believe that it should represent the views of the people in it and if that includes people from minority whack job parties so be it, they have as much right to be heard as you and I. P.R. will prevent anything from getting done is a commonly heard phrase but perhaps to rephrase the sentiment as, P.R. will prevent the extremes of minority parties being forced upon us. Why do we have a low electoral turn out? Why don't either of the major parties want to make voting compulsory as the Aussies have done? Because the system stinks and they like it that way.

Of the 650 MPs in the commons elected by the 29.7 million or so voters that turned out just one MP sits for UKIP although near 4 million people voted UKIP, that's not far shy of 1 in 7 voters. While my example above appears ridiculous it does illustrate the reality.

Rant over and again I apologise.
DixiePiobaire

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Reply with quote  #21 
Dave .. HA .. no contention taken, and certainly nothing to apologise about! I said I was 'bailing' because we'd strayed (I very much include myself) well away from the original point of the thread. I don't doubt for one minute that the three of us could sit for hours and discuss the modern politics of our respective Countries .. of a certainty passionately .. probably with more agreement than disagreement .. and still be able to enjoy a dram or three as friends.

Dave .. you're right. Reading it back it does sound as though I was making a political point. In a sense that was true, but only as an historical response to an earlier post that seemed to imply that the whole question of the desperately sad story of the Indian Schools was reflected in modern changes to school education under a 'disliked' Administration .. and I don't think it is. It was badly put. So if anything I have said appeared to be an attack on one US Party or another, I unreservedly withdraw it .. that was not my intention. The treatment of the American Indian Tribes was, as you rightly say, pretty shameful under all Administrations .. and that paucity of attention to minority groups has, sadly, been reflected in our own UK history .... for many of the same reasons. As for Trump .. if I believed that his was the true voice of Republicanism then I really would be both sad, and worried .. but I don't! 

HA .. we obviously got in to a 'terminology' misunderstanding. I take 'Proportional Representation' to be voting systems where second, third, and sometimes fourth, preferences are indicated on the voting form .. and as any one candidate reaches the level that has been calculated as a 'win' the rest of his/her votes are distributed to their next preference .. and so on and so on, until exhausted. We had a referendum, set up by the Conservative / Libdem Government, on whether to move to a basic form of this (the single transferable vote) back in 2011 .. but (on a very low turnout) 68% of the votes went against it. Personally, I think it is the duty of every citizen to vote .. even if they choose to indicate their dissatisfaction with everyone standing by spoiling their vote (effectively abstaining) .. but that's a whole different discussion!

DP             

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horseapples

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Reply with quote  #22 
Dixie, I awoke this morning somewhat ashamed of both my rant and hijacking a thread so I'll get my hand off it. It does still make me spit feathers however that on the PR referendum there was what appeared to be a total information blackout from all parties with the only available information being the complete negativity of the press yet on this one there's a partisan government leaflet drop. Old Nick Clegg must be seathing that he (and we) got screwed. If you remember Farage in the pre 2015 election run up saying that he'd only ally his party with the Tories (in the case of a hung parliament) if they held this referendum ANDdid so fairly. An indication that he regarded Clegg's as a stitch up?

Dave, forgive me sir but I know little of the schools in this thread. Were they all few in number forcing children to travel to them and stay on site as a boarding school or did they end up placing them near the populations they targeted?
DixiePiobaire

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Reply with quote  #23 
HA .. see Camp Fire

DP

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TsalagiDave

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Reply with quote  #24 
DP, thanks for the clarification on that. Although we all have our theories on how to make the world a better place for everyone, you have always been a fan of seeking the facts and letting them speak for themselves.  Looking forward to the next discussion.

Till then my friend...

-Dave

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